Curse

Shmanka · Feb 07, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

No arguments are thrown out of a window. I don't see your calculations on it, stop being a hypocrite.

Intentional draws are done in tournaments like chess, M:TG, and other weird games. In Guildwars, there is an online 24/7 system that accounts, and they decided that anything that manipulates that system is against their rules.

Done.

Also, remember that the reason a top 16 even exists is because of the first monthly where Heart of Ashes and Dust or w/e they are called, got the first monthly gold cape on a basis of just beating completely bad guilds and getting a flawless record, which had no bearing in the skill and dedication other guilds had. The top 16 Final rounds were created to actually prove who was worthy. [rawr] has done this consistantly, and on good terms, but can you actually tell me that they have won enough gold capes to purposely unjustify other pvp guilds trying to do the same?

The tie breaker is a horrible mechanic, since the change of VoD (which also obviously had its own problems) guilds have ran ridiculous builds, no control factors, and upload on damage. I assume the game will stay this way, so is it actually reasonable to have a tie breaker? When is the damage done to the guild lord actually going to be the exact same amount from both teams? This is different from hero battles where they go by a simple point system.

So either change the rules, so every monthly you guys can watch 8 different conga lines and find out who is prettier, or change the mechanics of the tie breaker.

The math, I am sure ANet can provide, I am not the one claiming "what they did had no bearing" on the tournament, because it obviously did. The people who are arguing on my side and have no idea what I am talking about are just complaining. There was a high chance, [rawr] would have not made top 16. So in order to get a guaranteed slot in top 16, they conga lined.

The whole top 8 system for getting your ridiculous free Z-keys was messed around, the whole top 16 for getting reward points was messed around, the whole amount of guilds getting silver trim was messed around, and the gold cape could have possibly been given to another guild.

I am a hypocrite, because this matters to me, I want this game to stay competitive, you obviously are free lancing this like its doing PvE missions... I want something done. Do you actually have any idea how much dedicated play time there is involved in getting into the monthly? At best case scenario, on the latest of american hours, you are going to play 3 tournaments and get first place twice in order to simply qualify. Look how some guilds in the past have had 100 qualifier points, and they don't even make top 16. You make it seem so simple, but alot of people dedicate their free time to play in a competitive game, where success is every step of rating, and capes are the icing on that cake every month.

So how is losing the gold cape for a short period of time fair? Losing ladder rank, even though they may get a better rating and win/loss ratio, is going to actually force them to work back for what they did. Also Divine, if people intentionally draw in Hero Battles, I want them to lose rating as well. The [rawr] punishment at the moment is honeslty, "Let's AFK for a month and everything will be back to normal". ANet the problem is still you allowing them to compete, you have done nothing to enforce the rules. EVERYONE is laughing. If you want alot of sacastic and realistic emotions being delivered, go to teamquitter forums and find out for yourself. There is no "wow fair punishment" you get actual PvP responses. To all the users of THIS forum: are you all really going to point and laugh at them in Kamadan when they are going to buy their crystalline swords with their massive amount of Z-keys? "Slap on the Wrist" is the best term for this punishment, and in one word: Joke.

So, explain to me one more time how this punishment is fair...

Divine Xan · Feb 07, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I'm sorry, but I have never heard of you in the pvp community. So let me point somethings out, we don't really care about trims all that much.

Trims are absolutely nothing, its a fancy design, and I admit its probably great to have (I legitamently got silver 2x). The biggest problem is that this is in no way going to stop people from doing "tie breakers".

rawr doesn't get TV for a month, it's like ANet did a bad grounding on them.

I think it was mathematically proven that [zero] would have gotten top 16, and [rawr] possibly in the top 32, or very likely.

This is a slap on the wrist, and a polite way to ask them to not do it again. I like [rawr] and [zero] they bring competition in this game. But this is not punishment, this is a joke.

You guys all don't pvp at all, RA and TA don't count. I have no idea how any of you could think this is fair.

<3 this post

Agree with people describing it as trivial it is.

But if your going to punish rawr/zero then punish everyone invloved in this (ie HBers also).

Or just fix it by changing the system of how a draw works... just make it into a loss for both sides (is this possible, correct me if it cant be done).

Do the whole job not half of it (again....).

Also, any chance of seeing the math? I wasnt able to watch the mAT so I dont know who the beat and all the data required for working it out.

Kashrlyyk · Feb 07, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Draw isn't the same as asking to resign, plain and simple.

You totally missed the point. TRYING TO CHEAT/BREAK THE RULES is not the same as ACTUALLY CHEATING/BREAKING THE RULES!!!!!! This is the point. The latter is a much worse offense and has to be punished worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

The "anet favors rawr" has been discussed to death, and in my opinion, is pretty silly. Anyhow, I don't see the point of arguing over something that has been decided already.

Because changing unfair, biased and wrong decisions is not something people should care for. BTW look up the meaning of "appealing a judgement".

Dmitri3 · Feb 07, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

You totally missed the point. TRYING TO CHEAT/BREAK THE RULES is not the same as ACTUALLY CHEATING/BREAKING THE RULES!!!!!! This is the point. The latter is a much worse offense and has to be punished worse.

Because changing unfair, biased and wrong decisions is not something people should care for. BTW look up the meaning of "appealing a judgement".

Wow... please ban 90% of all HB'ers and all guilds that sign up for tourny but intentionally don't participate ( [gg] - [KMD] for example ), then we might talk again.

Unfair, biased, wrong? Intentional draw is widely accepted in many communities. Besides, even after reading rules, it's still not clear it talks about draws. Warning is a completely legitimate action on Anet's part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

There was a high chance, [rawr] would have not made top 16.

You make big claims, but... I still don't see any calculations that you supposedly did.

Shmanka · Feb 07, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

You make big claims, but... I still don't see any calculations that you supposedly did.

This is straight from GW-Wiki

Quote:

Match points are used for pairing and tie-breakers. Each guild earns 3 match points for every match they win, 1 point for any draws, and 0 points for any matches lost. Each guild is assigned an additional 0 to 0.999 match points based on their opponent's match win percentage. In short, these additional match points will be higher when you defeat opponents with a lot of wins than when you beat opponents with a lot of losses. These additional match points are calculated every time after a round, so they don't add up. This means that if the opponent you beat in the first round wins all other rounds your additional match points will rise.

[rawr] played against 2 guilds from my knowledge that hit the top 40 only. So their winnings would not place them well in the tie breakers mechanics for additional match points. In other words, they beat guilds that went 3/3 and 2/4 or 4/2 [I know this because, I saw their matchups, and those guilds final ratings in the tournament].

Now let's take a look at this screenshot of the last monthly tournament standings.

[rawr] has a placement of 13.283. The one point coming from the tie breaker. Now imagine [rawr] did not win. That means they would have recieved 12.283, and if they did not win, they would not have made top 16. because this score woud place them below #17 Virtual Escape [vE], and #18 Unstopable Raging Playaz [uRp]. Yes that's right ladies and gentlemen, that means [rawr] would have been #18 this month, and not #1.

This is not a hard calculation, nor a complex one. Do the simple Math based off of Wiki. Then look at the chart. What's even more likely is that they would have gotten worse tiebreaker points, this is because the tie breaker points will accumulate for [zero] and their draw. This draw put both [zero] and [rawr] above the remaining 10 guilds that had a chance at top 16 from tie breaker mechanics who went 4/2.
Obviously one of the guilds were going to lose and get 4/2. Apparently there is more complicated mathematical work that supports [zero] making top 16 no matter what based on the difficulty of previous matches. Sadly that math that supports [zero], completely screws over [rawr] unless they won that match in the final swiss round.

If someone here, understands better of how the system gives and delivers points, your task is to somehow prove that rawr would have better tie breakers without that draw. Like I said, I know ANet can provide that information, because they created the system. Simply put, I don't think they will, because then everyone will know. I believe I completely understand how it works. I would have to know all the matchups rawr had, but 2 of their winnings were against guilds that never even touched the top 20 in the monthly. So I don't think their tie breakers of whoever else they won against would do it justice.

Here is that screenshot:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6342/gw781rf7.jpg

Use the edit button.

Kashrlyyk · Feb 07, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Wow... please ban 90% of all HB'ers and all guilds that sign up for tourny but intentionally don't participate ( [gg] - [KMD] for example ), then we might talk again.

Unfair, biased, wrong? Intentional draw is widely accepted in many communities. Besides, even after reading rules, it's still not clear it talks about draws.
....

If you have a problem with HB and what players do there, report them, but this topic is about the mAT and GvG!

The rules talk about "....that deviate from guilds actually playing and completing battles." A conga line instead of fighting is most definitely covered by that!!!! Intentional Draws without fighting are against the rules of GW, other communities or games don`t matter. It doesn´t matter what FIFA or UEFA or NBA and so on think about intentional draws.

Kawil · Feb 07, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

I'm not a PvPer and don't claim to be but it seems, to me, that the punishment should have been a little tougher. I know this was a first offense but this is high end stuff here and the rules must not be broken like that. A ban from the next tourney would've probably been better AND taking the trims. Maybe perhaps knocking them down in rankings.

Only my 2 cents but I feel that as a deterrent to others...exclusion from tourneys will hit them more where it hurts. At least as far as the guild goes since individuals will more than likely have other accounts.

DreamWind · Feb 08, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Intentional draws are done in tournaments like chess, M:TG, and other weird games. In Guildwars, there is an online 24/7 system that accounts, and they decided that anything that manipulates that system is against their rules.

Done.

The problem here is that they decided this after the fact, in a system where me and several others wouldn't have thought it was cheating in the slightest.

Shmanka · Feb 08, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem here is that they decided this after the fact, in a system where me and several others wouldn't have thought it was cheating in the slightest.

That is a whole other debate, because yes the rules were created when AT/mAT tournaments were not put in place, but I remember someone (I believe Izzy) saying that the same rules would apply when they first were created.

So, in that manner it may be worth debating but most likely the same rules applied. This is manipulation, and honestly this kind of manipulation would not happen if VoD existed.

Joseph Spiritmaster · Feb 08, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Sorry, personally dont think removing the cape trim is really a "punishment" i mean im not a PvPer but from a PvP standpoint, removing cape trim is a joke. Suspend them from the tourney's or something.

P.S. Loved the fact that rawr and zero did the congo line, really wish i could've seen it.
Nice job, thanks for bringing some entertainment the slight dullness that has become Guild Wars.

fenix · Feb 08, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

This is a bit of a joke. I'm quite sure [rawr] and [zero] aren't sitting at home crying because they lose capes for a month, seeing how easy they can just get them again. This also won't deter others from intentionally drawring, since they get to keep RPs, and only lose cape. [rawr] should have been punished more than [zero] since they had so much more to lose if they hadn't drawrn.

Wild Rituals · Feb 08, 2009, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

[rawr] should have been punished more than [zero] since they had so much more to lose if they hadn't drawrn.

This is daft. They both Cheated Equally. Both got punished Equally
whats the point punishing 1 guild more? for something both guilds did equally.
you could say they may have lost the chance to not get top 16
but they still have other gold capes so im sure they wouldnt be to bothered losing 1
all they are losing is a few thousand RP's. and with previous wins im sure they are rich enough. so its not like they care.

mrvrod · Feb 08, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

First, full disclosure: The PvP that I am most familiar with is AB, and I'd much rather PvE.

Second, I'd like to relate this to more of a real-world scenario. If I were watching a boxing match and the two boxers just danced around the ring, they would be disqualified by the ref and both would sustain a loss.

Third, while it is Anets right to decide the punnishment of any infraction, I do find this a little on the light side.

If it were up to me, they both would be handed a loss for that match and let the rankings fall where they may.

While a reasonable person would know conga lines to a draw were against the spirit of the rule, Anet did not foresee this type of collusion and only discussed handing a team a win in the rules, so I agree with the decision not to suspend, and to clarify the rules.

bel unbreakable · Feb 08, 2009, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Surely those guys at those top guilds should be setting an example as to the standards of behaviour that the rest of us should aim to reach .
if both teams fight but can't beat each other thats a draw any thing else is cheating no matter what kind of fancy words ppl use to slide around the truth.

shoyon456 · Feb 08, 2009, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Uh yeah, maybe anet should actually implement an in game mechanic to prevent this loophole, instead of giving a pussy-weak deterent from doing it.

I'm not a PvP'er by any standards, but if anyone knows the saying "where there's a will there's a way," I like to think of "where theres a way, there's abuse." People will use the system to their own benefit through whatever loopholes available. Anet needs do something about the whole system that indefinitely prevents this from ever happening again. PERIOD.

EDIT: On the other hand, they won't do anything except patchwork on gw1 because all their dam resources are on gw2. And Gw1 is being left to rot from the inside out.

Shmanka · Feb 08, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

The problem in my eyes at the moment, is if all the information was something that was actually considered when making a punishment, to me it seems a bit light with the information I provided. Perhaps Regina Buenaobra, can shine some light on this subject. Did you guys actually know this stuff, that the tournament was changed this much by what they did? Or was the information I posted just never brought up?

*lemming* · Feb 08, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

This punishment is completely symbolic.

Also, all this thread has shown is that free speech is a horrible idea.

Kotetsu Rain · Feb 08, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

That's some pretty funny stuff.

Lord Sojar · Feb 08, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

[rawr] should have lost their gold trim permanently. It isn't like they couldn't earn it back... they win so often after all. [zero] doesn't get to have their cape trim at all, so nor should [rawr]. And before you go off mentioning the fact that gold trims are permanent, and silver are only until next MAT ends, that is irrelevant. The punishment fits the crime for [zero], it doesn't fit for [rawr]. [rawr] can just go about their business, and not even participate in another MAT, and their gold trim will just poof back after this month. [zero] has to earn their trim again.

I think considering [rawr]'s behavior (I understand the draw mechanics, don't insult me by thinking I don't... the fact is they didn't even battle...), they deserve a more fitting punishment. Their punishment treats them like they didn't know better, which is completely untrue. They are a very experienced, intelligent guild. They knew better, and did it anyways, knowing they would either not be punished or get a slap on the wrist; that is exactly what happened, just as they had anticipated.

I say stone them to death, burn their corpses in holy fire, and bury what is leftover in a shallow grave... but whatever.

stale · Feb 08, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

ok - for those who say they plainly "broke the rules". bullshit. simply that. they *did* abuse a game mechanic, but that is it. seriously.

also, in all reality, does anyone, ANYONE at all, doubt that [rawr] would have taken the place they did without the draw with [zero]? honestly, consider that. i saw the whole thing as a "we both know how this will turn out - why not just goof off instead" sort of thing - very nearly a salute between the two teams.

quite simply, the "punishment" is so soft because there was no "crime". if anything, it's anet's screwup, which the light punishment reflects.

seriously folks - those who thing this is the end of the world - go pop some pills, get some sunlight, and maybe just invest in some perspective.

[edited for accuracy]